Реформированная английская латиница

Автор Hellerick, 28 июня 2022, 20:31

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Hellerick

#26
no, know
our, hour
for, four
to, two...

Ну и прочее.

Ей богу, не надо над людьми такие эксперименты ставить. Если есть возможность им смысл орфографией подсказать, лучше подсказать.

Зритель

Вы считаете избыточность орфографии достоинством, а я недостатком. Плохо, когда нужно гадать и запоминать, в каком слове какой вариант используется. И морфологически не оправдано в отличие от русского, всё исключительно по традиции. Вы кстати тоже по традиционным написаниям хорошо прошлись, Ваши новые написания тоже надо заучивать пословно.

Это не эксперимент над людьми? :)

Зритель

#28
Цитата: Hellerick от 07 августа 2022, 18:47Вот еще один проект за авторством некого Okay977:
По его шаблону:

Cleaning up english's spelling and removing many redundant orthographic features. This English spelling reform is not phonetic but follows a reduced set of existing rules. Based on the Received Pronunciation.

Vowels

Short

a /æ/: bat
e /e/: bet
i, y /ɪ/: bit, pity (y in the end of the word, else i)
o /ɒ/: bot
u /ʌ/: but
ü /ʊ/: put→püt

Long

á /eɪ/: bait→bát
é /i:/: beat→bét
í, ý /aɪ/: bite→bít, buy→bý (ý in the end of the word, else í)
ó /əʊ/: boat→bót
ú, yoo /ju:/: beauty→búty, youth→yooth (yoo is used when there is an alternation in cognates: youth-young, you-yours)

Diphthongs and others

ä /ɑː/ palm→päm
ou, ow /aʊ/ bout, bow (ow in the end of the word and before vowels, else ou)
oi, oy /ɔɪ/ boy, join, royal (oy in the end of the word and before vowels, else oi)
au, aw /ɔː/ bought→baut, paw (aw in the end of the word and before vowels, else au)
oo /u:/ boot

Vowel reduction and schwa

i, y represent unstressed ɪ, i (y in the end of the word, else i).
a, e, o, u represent schwa. The letters i, y are changed to a: reality→rialaty; ai to a: certain→sërtan
er, or, ur, ar, ir represent schwa+r. Endings yr, -re are changed to -er; -our to -or: letter→leter, metre→méter, calendar, stupor→stúpor, succour→sucor, martyr→marter, figure→figur

Rhotic vowels: +r

ar /ær/: parrot→parot, parable→parabl
är /ɑːr/: start→stärt, heart→härt
ur /ʌr/: hurry→hury, current→curent
ër /ɜːr/: nurse→nërs, hurt→hërt, term→tërm, bird→bërd, heard→hërd
ír /aɪər/ fire→fír, iron→írn
our /aʊər/: our, tower→tour
er /er/: merry→mery, very
ár /eər/: square→squár, fair→fár, pear→pár, where→wár, vary→váry, Mary→Máry
ir /ɪr/ mirror→miror
ér /ɪər/ near→nér, beer→bér, sincere→sinsér, serum→sérum
or /ɒr/ orison→orizon, origin→orijin
or /ɔːr/ north, for, war→wor, born
or /oːr/ force→fors, four→for, wore→wor, borne→born
ür /ʊər/ poor→pür, tourist→türist, jury→jüry, plural→plüral
úr /jʊər/ cure→cúr, pure→púr

Consonant changes

s→z when /z/ and /ʒ/: please→ pléz, pleasure→plezúr
c, t→s when /ʃ/: special→spesyal, partial→pärsyal
-sion→-zyon when /ʒən/: confusion→confúzyon
-tion→-syon when /ʃ/: negotiation→negósiásyon
g, dg→j when /dʒ/: giant→jiant; judge→juj
g→ġ when /ʒ/: prestige→prestéġ, mirage→miräġ
gh, ph→f when /f/: laugh→läf, philosophy→filosofy
ch, k→c when /k/: character→caracter, ache→ác, kin→cin
ng→ngg when /ŋg/: finger→fingger as opposed to singer
x→xh when /gz/: exam→ixham
i→y when /j/: onion→unyon
silent consonants removed: bought→baut, light→lít, wrong→rong, knife→níf, honor→onor,  psalm→säm, doubt→dout, receipt→risét, indict→indít
doubled consonants made single: butter→buter, sack→sac, egg→eg, add→ad, pitch→pich
-es and -ed are written as they sound: bits, bids→bidz, vices→vísiz, packed→pact, nagged→nagd, ended→endid

Hellerick


Зритель

#30
По ходу составления примера изменил правило. Не добавлять букву a на месте швы в словах на -ble, потому что она выпадает при словоизменении, а я хотел, чтобы слова выглядели более-менее одинаково во всех формах, например: noble-nobler [ˈnəʊ.bəl ˈnəʊ.blə(r)] -> nóbl-nóbler.

Также нашёл проблемное место -- неразличение /ɒr/ и /ɔːr/, совпадают в or, как правило встречается второй вариант, а примеры для первого редки -- это orison, origin. Пока ничего с этим не делаю.

Á monolog from thé plá bý Wilyam Shácspér

HAMLET: Too bé, or not too bé--that iz thé questyon:
Whether 'tiz nóbler in thé mínd too sufer
Thé slingz and aróz ov outrájos fortún
Or too tác armz agánst á sé ov trublz
And bý opózing end them. Too dí, to slép--
Nó mor--and bý á slép too sá wé end
Thé härtác, and thé thouzand natúral shocs
That flesh iz ár too. 'Tiz á consumásyon
Divoutly too bé wisht. Too dí, too slép--
Too slép--perchäns too drém: ý, thár'z thé rub,
For in that slép ov deth wot drémz má cum
Wen wé hav shufld of this mortal coil,
Must giv us pauz. Thár'z thé rispect
That mács calamaty ov só long líf.
For hoo wüld bár thé wips and scornz ov tím,
Th' opresor'z rong, thé proud man'z contúmely
Thé pangz ov dispízd luv, thé law'z dilá,
Thé insolens ov ofis, and thé spërnz
That pásyent merit ov th' unwërthy tács,
Wen hé himself mít hiz quíétus mác
With á bár bodcin? Hoo wüld färdelz bár,
Too grunt and swet under á wéry líf,
But that thé dred ov sumthing äfter deth,
Thé undiscuverd cuntry, from hooz born
Nó traveler ritërnz, puzlz thé wil,
And mács us räther bár thóz ilz wé hav
Than flý too utherz that wé nó not ov?
Thus consyens duz mác cowardz ov us ol,
And thus thé nátiv hú ov rezoloosyon
Iz siclid ó'er with thé pále cäst ov thaut,
And enterpríz ov grát pich and móment
With this rigärd thár curents tërn arý
And looz thé nám ov acsyon. -- Soft yoo now,
Thé fár Ófélya! -- Nimf, in thý orizonz
Bé ol mý sinz rimemberd.

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Причесал оба поста, выправил много опечаток. :fp:  Если есть ещё, дайте знать.

Hellerick

Цитата: Зритель от 09 августа 2022, 19:45or /ɔːr/ north, for, war→wor, born
or /oːr/ force→fors, four→for, wore→wor, borne→born

С чего вы взяли, что там разные звуки, и как решаете, где какой?

Зритель

Посмотрел в Карнеги -- ну да, AO1. За что купил, за то продаю.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_set
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_vowel_changes_before_historic_/r/#Horse%E2%80%93hoarse_merger

По идее слова из группы FORCE надо писать через ór по этимологии и для большего диалектного охвата. Но я как-то остановился на RP.

Hellerick

Я таки считаю, что записывать преимущественно безударные слова по их сильным формам — дурная идея.

To/too, the/thee — это слова с разным значением, произношением, орфографией. Терять разницу между ними нерационально.

Зритель

Для полного счастья добавить самые частотные 100 слов в исключения и писать окончания -s/-es и -ed везде по традиции.

Я больше тяготею к принципу одна буква -- одна фонема, но тогда совсем неузнаваемо становится.

Зритель

Цитата: Hellerick от 10 августа 2022, 09:25Я таки считаю, что записывать преимущественно безударные слова по их сильным формам — дурная идея.

To/too, the/thee — это слова с разным значением, произношением, орфографией. Терять разницу между ними нерационально.
Поставил на первое место морфологический принцип.

Зритель

Z режет глаз. Надо выработать правило, чтобы писать на его месте s и не путать.

1) В начале слова и перед глухими согласными s /s/, z /z/.
2) В остальных местах ss /s/, s /z/.


aztec /ˈæz.tek/, disdain /dɪsˈdeɪn/ -> dissdán, police /pəˈliːs/ -> poléss

Hellerick

Цитата: Зритель от 12 августа 2022, 06:02Z режет глаз. Надо выработать правило, чтобы писать на его месте s и не путать.

1) В начале слова и перед глухими согласными s /s/, z /z/.
2) В остальных местах ss /s/, s /z/.

"glimpss"?

А в грамматических окончаниях что?

Зритель

Да, этот случай я упустил. Надо расширять первый пункт.

1) В начале слова, перед глухими согласными и в окончаниях после глухих согласных s /s/, z /z/.

Зритель

Слова на -ous придётся писать с двумя s. Но так скорее всего и надо, потому что полно слов так пишутся.

priceless -> príssless, goodness -> güdness, gorgeous -> gorjoss.

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Зритель


Hellerick

Конвертировал в свою реформированную латиницу еще одну книжку: "Journey to the River Sea", by Eva Ibbotson.


https://disk.yandex.ru/i/hL4jTj0VcT2OUw

Hellerick

#45
Описание системы:

LIRA: Latin Inglish Reformed Alfabet

Description

Alphabet

The LIRA alphabet consists of 32 letters: 26 letters of the basic Latin alphabet and 6 additional letters (á, é, í, ô, ó, û, ú):

A Á B C D E É F G H I Í J K L M N O Ó Ô P Q R S T U Ú Û V W X Y
a á b c d e é f g h i í j k l m n o ó ô p q r s t u ú û v w x y

Phonetic values of graphemes

Vowel graphemes

13 letters are used to reflect vowel sounds.

LetterPronunciationNote
A a/æ/
Á á/eɪ/Used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology. The phonetic value is equivalent to the combinations EI, EY.
E e/ɛ/
É é/iː/Used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology. The phonetic value is equivalent to the letter Y.
I i/ɪ/
Í í/aɪ/Used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology. The phonetic value is equivalent to the combinations AI, AY.
O o/ɒ/
Ó ó/əʊ/Used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology. The phonetic value is equivalent to the combinations OU, OW.
Ô ô/uː/
U u/ʌ/
Ú ú/juː/Used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology. The phonetic value is equivalent to the combinations EU, YÓ. Depending on dialect in some positions the sound /j/ can disappear, thus the value changes to /uː/.
Û û/ʊ/
Y y/iː/Normally reflects the vowel sound when not preceding a vowel letter, and in combinations AY, EY. Otherwise its value is the consonant /j/.

Also 10 letter combinations are used:

CombinationPronunciationNote
AI, AY/aɪ/The variant AI is basic. The variant AY is used to distinguish homophones.
AU/aʊ/
/ɔː/Used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology. The phonetic value is equivalent to the combination OO.
EI, EY/eɪ/The variant EI is basic. The variant EY is used to distinguish homophones.
EU/juː/Depending on dialect in some positions the sound /j/ can disappear, thus the value changes to /uː/.
OI/ɔɪ/
OO/ɔː/Used mostly in words of Germanic origin.
OU, OW/əʊ/The variant OU is basic. The variant OW is used to distinguish homophones.

Thus the historical long vowels and diphthongs have two graphemes: one normally used for words of Romance origin, and another for words of Germanic origin:

PronunciationGrapheme for words of Romance originGrapheme for words of Germanic origin
/eɪ/ÁEI
/iː/ÉY
/aɪ/ÍAI
/əʊ/ÓOU
/juː/ÚEU (*)
/ɔː/OO

(*) The combination EU also can be used in words of Romance origin according to etymology. Example: Europ.

The principle of considering the origin of a word can be violated when it's necessary to distinguish homophones.

The unstressed vowel /ə/ is reflected according to etymology. In words of Germanic origin normally as E.

Consonant graphemes

21 letters are used to reflect consonant sounds.

LetterPronunciationNote
B b/b/
C c/s/Used in words of Romance origin according to etymology. The phonetic value is equivalent to the letter S.
D d/d/
F f/f/
G g/g/
H h/h/
J j/dʒ/
K k/k/Is silent in the combination KN where can be used to distinguish homophones.
L l/l/
M m/m/
N n/n/
P p/p/
Q q/k/Used in words of romance origin within the combination QU.
R r/r/
S s/s/Can be voicened to /z/ in suffices -ism, -asm.
T t/t/
V v/v/
W w/w/Can be used within rare combination OW having value of /əʊ/.
X x/ks/, /gz/
Y y/j/Normally reflects the consonant sound when preceding a vowel letter. Otherwise its value is the vowel /iː/.
Z z/z/

Also 5 letter combinations are used:

LetterPronunciationNote
CH/tʃ/
NG/ŋ/Treated as indivisible combination with value of /ŋ/ when located in morpheme-final position. Otherwise its value is /ŋg/.
QU/kw/Used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology. The phonetic value is equivalent to the combination KW.
SH/ʃ/
TH/θ/, /ð/

Combinations of vowels with the letter R

When followed by the letter R the vowel graphemes acquire special values:

CombinationPronunciationNote
AR/ɑː(r)/
AUR, AUER/aʊə(r)/
AIR, AIER, ÍR/eɪə(r)/The variant ÍR is used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology.
ER, EIR, ÁR/ɛə(r)/The variant ER is used in root-final position. The variant ÁR is used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology.
EUR, ÚR/jʊə(r)/The variant ÚR is used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology.
IR, ÉR/ɪə(r)/The variant ÉR is used mostly in words of Romance origin according to etymology.
OR, OUR/ɔː(r)/
ÔR, ÛR/ʊə(r)/
UR,ER+consonant,IR+consonant, UR+consonant/ɜː(r)/The variants UR and ER+consonant are used in root-final position. The variants ER+consonant, IR+consonant, UR+consonant are used in words of Romance origin according to etymology.

In the table above the first variant of grapheme is basic, and others are used to distinguish homophones.

Combination of consonants with the letters I, Ú

In words of Romance origin within unstressed syllables the values of dental consonants take into account the palatalization caused by succeeding non-syllabic letter I or letter Ú:

CombinationPronunciationNote
CI/ʃ/Before a vowel.
SI/ʃ/ Before a vowel.
TI/tʃ/Before a vowel.
ZI/ʒ/Before a vowel.
/ʃə/
/tʃə/
/ʒə/

Note that within stressed syllables the palatalization of dental consonants is shown explicitly: sure > shúr.

Uniform reflections of morphemes

The ending and suffix reflected in the traditional orthography as -(e)s, in the LIRA orthography is uniformly reflected as -es.(*)

(*) Four verbs with irregular 3rd person singular form are exceptions: has > has, is > is, does > dus, says > ses.

The suffix reflected in the traditional orthography es -ed, in the LIRA orthography is uniformly reflected as -ed.

Thus both morpheme have similar pronunciation rules:

Morpheme -es:
— after unvoiced consonants the value is /s/,
— after voiced consonants the value is /z/,
— after the sounds /s/, /z/, /ʃ/, /ʒ/ the value is /ɪz/.
Morpheme -ed:
— after unvoiced consonants the value is /t/,
— after voiced consonants the value is /d/,
— after the sounds /t/, /d/ the value is /ɪd/.

Some particular rules

  • Consonants reflected with double letters in the traditional orthography normally are reflected with single letters in the LIRA orthography. Exceptions are made for: double consonants between elements of compound words, the combination -ess (as it has to be distinguished from the grammatical ending -es), the combination -rr (as it's needed to show that the preceding vowel has the value of /ɜː/), and some words which have to be distinguished from homophones.
  • When the negative particle nt is added to a word, the apostrophe is used before it and not between its letters as in the traditional orthography. Example: doesn't > dus'nt.
  • The combination oo normally is used when the long pronunciation of the vowel is shown in a special way. Examples: saw > soo, taught > toot, talk > took.
  • If the stem of a word ends in sounds /ɛs/, /əs/ reflected in the traditional orthography as ‑ess, in the LIRA orthography it ends in ‑ess as well. This letter combination is retained when morphemes ‑ed, ‑es are added, but is simplified to ‑es when other morphemes are added. Examples: pointless, but pointlesli.
  • When two homophones of Germanic origin with the sound /iː/ exist, the one which reflects it with the combination ea in the traditional orthography reflects it with the letter É in the LIRA orthography. Examples: meat > mét, but meet > myt.
  • When two homophones of Germanic origin with the diphthong /aɪ/ exist, the one which reflects it with the combination igh in the traditional orthography reflects it with the combination AY in the LIRA orthography. Examples: right > rayt, but write > rait.
  • When two homophones of Germanic origin with the diphthong /eɪ/ exist, the one which reflects it with the combination ai, ay, aigh, or eigh in the traditional orthography reflects it with the combination ey in the LIRA orthography. Examples: sail > seyl, but sale > seil.
  • The sounds /jiː/ are reflected with the combination . Example: yeast > yést.
  • The combination kn with the value of /n/ is retained when it's necessary to distinguish homophones, and in words related to them. Examples: knead > knyd, know > knou, knowledge > knolej, knew > kneu, knight > knait<nowiki>; </nowiki>but knee > ny, knife > naif, knuckle > nukel.
  • In a set of words of Romance origin when a morpheme starting with a vowel letter is added, the final unstressed combination -er is simplified to -r. Example: center, but centres, central. When the combination -er is a suffix, it is not simplified. Example: peinter, peinteres. Normally the combination is not simplified in words of Germanic origin. Example: acres > eikeres.
  • In a set of words when a morpheme starting with a vowel letter is added, the final unstressed combination -el is simplified to -l. Example: puzel, puzling. When the combination -el is preceded by a vowel or the letter R, it is not simplified. Examples: tauel, taueles, quorel, quoreling.
  • The diphthong /aɪ/ in word-final position, reflected in the traditional orthography with the letter Y, in the LIRA orthography is reflected with the combination ai, disregarding the origin of the word. Example: try > trai. When the morpheme -ing is added to such word, the double letter I is simplified to a single letter. Example: trying > traing (not traiing).
  • When the morpheme -ing is added to a verb ending in -ei, the double letter I is simplified to a single letter. Example: staying > steing (not steiing).
  • The sounds /əʊld/ within a single morpheme are reflected as old. Example: gold > gold, shoulder > sholder.
  • Normally when the past tense form of a verb is homonymous to another word, nothing is done to prevent ambiguity. Examples: read (past tense) > red, leant > lent.
  • In words of Germanic origin the sounds /ɜː(r)/ are reflected as: combination ur in root-final position; combination er when preceding a consonant within the same root, combination err before a vowel within the same root.
  • In words of Romance origin the sounds /ɜː(r)/ are reflected as:
    — combination ur in root-final position;
    — combination er, ir, ur before a consonant within the same root according to etymology;
    — combination err, irr, urr before a vowel within the same root according to etymology.
    When the etymology is considered, the letter U is chosen also if the source language has the letter O.

Factors considered for choice between several variants of pronunciation of a word

The LIRA orthography is mostly based on the standard American (General American) and British (Received pronunciation) norms. When several pronunciation variants exist, the following factors are considered to choose what should be reflected by the LIRA orthography (sorted roughly by decreasing importance):

1) whether the form is represented both in the language of the UK and the US;

2) which resulting spelling is shorter;

3) which spelling corresponds to the pronunciation suggested by the traditional orthography;

4) the number of native speakers who are used to such pronunciation (i. e. the American form is preferred).

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